Curse

Tullzinski · May 22, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

After looking over many of the replies here, nerfing the build(s) does not sit well, however there are many great suggestions of alternatives. I have many solo builds myself and would hate to see them go. I took a risk starting this thread because I knew I would take some heat from some of you, it is all good

no hard feelings. I strictly play PVE and do not have the viewpoint needed to see how changes like this could affect PVP.

Perhaps a more vigorous reporting of violators on the part of the community would be a better option? I know I have reported around a hundred bots, since they are pretty easy to spot. Would it be better to have a some kind of thread here in GURU of bot sightings and those of us whom have a some extra time can observe and report them on a regular basis. Something along the lines of a neighborhood watch. I noticed many in Augury rock that would run to the skyward reach sign then to the ghost then out to skyward reach. There is absolutely no reason for a human to repeat this action over and over as they do.

If ANET is confident in their ability to positively identify a bot from a human farmer then we should support the effort in a positive manner. We could do this by listing areas with large concentrations of bots and spend 10-20 minutes of your in between time a week reporting them. Maybe even do some trading while you identify them.

Again I will say I have seen what happens to games where bots take over, I really loved Diablo and Diablo II and played it for years and it became a nightmare with all the bots/maphacks/dupes/advertisements for porn sites and so on I could go on but you get the idea. If there are bots that are spamming for trades they will start spamming for other things. I do not want to see Guild Wars end up like that.

Jwh6913 · May 22, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

simple thing is to change runes especially for monks
either add an weird number or subtract some

make it like 57 or 53. The 55 build wouldn't work as well, and perhaps we should just have only 1 sup rune per character using ther armor with it on, if add another sup rune, the first sup runed armor would unequip. We could still use unlimited majors . that'd work for a while, and it won't affect the skills at all

manitoba1073 · May 22, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

I think this thread is a troll.

Ontopic, PvE farmers already destroyed Prot Bond for PvP play. I don't feel we need to add more nerfed skills to the list just because of goldsellers. Destroying Protective Spirit and Shielding Hands is an ill-conceived notion, at best.

The solution to goldsellers, and the bots/farmers that supply them is simple: don't buy gold for real curreny. I don't.

No it was the abuse in PvP's GvG that prot bond was nerfed. Sorry to break that little bit of news to you.

now back on topic. WTF is wrong with some of you, man the botpobhia is spreading maybe we need to send in the doctors to clear this up. i hear its only a few hundred shots to the rear posteria area. get over it will some of you.

Oh and Lyra sorry but distortion is only a minor neusiance to those of us that actually know how to use our 55's.

Roshi_ikkyu · May 22, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

After looking over many of the replies here, nerfing the build(s) does not sit well, however there are many great suggestions of alternatives. I have many solo builds myself and would hate to see them go. I took a risk starting this thread because I knew I would take some heat from some of you, it is all good

no hard feelings. I strictly play PVE and do not have the viewpoint needed to see how changes like this could affect PVP.

Perhaps a more vigorous reporting of violators on the part of the community would be a better option? I know I have reported around a hundred bots, since they are pretty easy to spot. Would it be better to have a some kind of thread here in GURU of bot sightings and those of us whom have a some extra time can observe and report them on a regular basis. Something along the lines of a neighborhood watch. I noticed many in Augury rock that would run to the skyward reach sign then to the ghost then out to skyward reach. There is absolutely no reason for a human to repeat this action over and over as they do.

If ANET is confident in their ability to positively identify a bot from a human farmer then we should support the effort in a positive manner. We could do this by listing areas with large concentrations of bots and spend 10-20 minutes of your in between time a week reporting them. Maybe even do some trading while you identify them.

Again I will say I have seen what happens to games where bots take over, I really loved Diablo and Diablo II and played it for years and it became a nightmare with all the bots/maphacks/dupes/advertisements for porn sites and so on I could go on but you get the idea. If there are bots that are spamming for trades they will start spamming for other things. I do not want to see Guild Wars end up like that.

Whoa Tullzinski, your full of 'it' and yourself. Just because you see a monk with tatts zoning doesn't make it a bot. And your system is easy to abuse; I may just report you as a bot

I have a monk
I wear tatts
I zone regularly on farming runs
I even sometimes use the hotkey actions (Auto run r, and sign post clicking.)
I almost always have local chat off.
If I get a random trade, I decline and ignore it.
If I get a Whisper about botting, Your likely to get a STFU noob! response.

And one final thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Again I will say I have seen what happens to games where bots take over, I really loved Diablo and Diablo II and played it for years and it became a nightmare with all the bots/maphacks/dupes/advertisements for porn sites and so on I could go on but you get the idea. If there are bots that are spamming for trades they will start spamming for other things. I do not want to see Guild Wars end up like that.

So to prevent 'this' you want a 55 nerf...Your confused. You want a way to prevent bots from accessing GW. And yet you claim banning/ Nerfing 55's will do this?
Spam bots can be any class, don't require armour or skills. Infact they require coding at alevel of a 9 yr old. (Enter, message, enter, enter, up arrow, enter, repeat enter, up arrow, enter)

Sorry, but your debate has become a flop. It's what happens when you present no logical argument, or evidence to back up your basis!. Nerfing a single build or skill will not prevent bots.

Dione Davore · May 22, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

And while we are nerfing solo-farming:

remove spirits from the game since there's lots of solo-farming with spirits in Urgoz going on at the moment. I think I got over 200 golden items last 2 days.

Here's what I got dropped with my ranger and necromancer

EternalTempest · May 22, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

It's been demonstrated that there are numerous non-55 solo farming builds that can even work better.

It's much better to nerf the solo off hand item vs rune stacking or the skills themselves (and I'm against changing this).

All MMO games with a virtual economy have bot problems and I prefer Anet's method vs heavy handed mass bands (they still make mistakes) that other games use.

Anet has stated they have NO problem with personal farming and feel if something is out of wack, THEY will change what ever needs to be done.

And I'm a simple PvE player that makes do never seeing more then 1-3p at any given time / non-farmer.

lyra_song · May 22, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Oh and Lyra sorry but distortion is only a minor neusiance to those of us that actually know how to use our 55's.

Who said anything about [wiki]distortion[/wiki]?

Core skills: [wiki]Diversion[/wiki] , [wiki]Shatter Enchantment[/wiki]. Go 55 with that in the mob.

[wiki]Spell Breaker[/wiki] you say?

Try: two bad guys in a mob with [wiki]Lightning Touch[/wiki] and [wiki]Aftershock[/wiki] or [wiki]Signet of Agony[/wiki] and [wiki]Barbed Signet[/wiki]

The point is not to make farming impossible, just difficult, so it requires some talent. Anet could easily render the 55 near useless just by making mobs more diverse with proper shutdown and enchantment hate.

Tullzinski · May 22, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roshi_ikkyu

Whoa Tullzinski, your full of 'it' and yourself. Just because you see a monk with tatts zoning doesn't make it a bot. And your system is easy to abuse; I may just report you as a bot

I have a monk
I wear tatts
I zone regularly on farming runs
I even sometimes use the hotkey actions (Auto run r, and sign post clicking.)
I almost always have local chat off.
If I get a random trade, I decline and ignore it.
If I get a Whisper about botting, Your likely to get a STFU noob! response.

And one final thing.

So to prevent 'this' you want a 55 nerf...Your confused. You want a way to prevent bots from accessing GW. And yet you claim banning/ Nerfing 55's will do this?
Spam bots can be any class, don't require armour or skills. Infact they require coding at alevel of a 9 yr old. (Enter, message, enter, enter, up arrow, enter, repeat enter, up arrow, enter)

Sorry, but your debate has become a flop. It's what happens when you present no logical argument, or evidence to back up your basis!. Nerfing a single build or skill will not prevent bots.

OK Roshi, what would you suggest?

byteme! · May 23, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

I think it's safe to say that the vast majority DO NOT AGREE with the OP.

Enix · May 23, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

55ing amounts to an exploit that would enrage a small, vocal sect of the community if it were fixed. Almost all classes can 55, and it dosent take that much intelligence or creativity to do it.

Just fix it. The complainers will complain, but it will subside. People who only play GW to 55 should probably leave the game anyway.

ogre-mage · May 23, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

The time is now to have a serious discussion about the Solo builds and the effect on Guild Wars.

I think we have to consider having the 55 Build nerfed permanently, protective spirit or shielding hands needs to be changed (and any similar spells) so it does not effect the caster.

Anyone going to Granite Citadel or Bergen Hot Springs (and many other places) can see the side-effect this build is having. I love my 55 but this is obscene. Before you post an answer to this post go there and spend 10 minutes watching the stream of Monks.

Is the preservation of these builds going to ruin the game in the long run? Will ANET have to allocate more resources to combat the problem, leading to the game no longer being offered without a monthly fee? Far fetched? Maybe, but not completely outside the realm of possibility. Have these builds already caused many problems? Yes they have. I completely understand that it is not the builds themselves causing the problems. It is what is being done with the builds, by the greedy, that is creating problem. It is a slowly growing cancer in our community and will not be stopped by any amount of banning. Banning is a game to the people who exploit games, one which they have been adapting to for many years.

It is too time consuming for ANET hunt the offenders down, it is ruining many facets of Guild Wars. I love this game and I am seeing it start to go down the road of Diablo II. I'm sure many of you have other examples of games being ruined in this manner. We only have to point to those games to see what could happen here.

I have reviewed many of the posts from Gaile Gray and the responses from many of you. I cannot find where anyone has suggested killing this at the point which enables Guild Wars to be exploited (my apologies if someone has). Many of the banning issues would be mute since the reason for the problem in the first place would be eliminated. Loot scaling may have never happened.

If any other Solo Build can be perverted to the uses we see in those areas then it should be nerfed also.

I do not want this to degrade to a discussion of what should have been done or who is at fault. And if the moderator shuts this thread down I will understand.

This issue is here in front of us and we need to offer positive and constructive input to see it through. I for one would be happy to find alternate farming methods should the solo builds go by the wayside. We the Guild Wars Community should ask for this change to help ANET keep our game free and free from exploits.

It's bad enough that PvP is constantly dragging PvE down. If we start implementing stupid ideas like this, the opposite will also be true.

Also, don't make threads like this. Anet has been on a cocaine/acid-trip lately and I wouldn't be surprised if they started actually considering every forum post that suggests detrimental and obscene changes to the game, just for shits and giggles, you know?

EDIT: I just read all the other dim-witted comments (i.e. 'Farmers should just leave the game' e.t.c.) and I just thought I'd remind you 'visionaries' that every time a nerf has been set on a farming build, a new one emerges within time. There are still plenty of Warrior, Ele, Ranger, Necro, Assassin, Ritualist hell, even Mesmer farming builds that DON'T rely on the 55/105 setup, so why does it seem right to destroy the Monk's (almost) one and only standard farming build? Besides, you'll screw pvp to hell if you mess with Protective Spirit, and plenty parts of Pve too.

To translate what the OP is actually saying: YEAH LETS DESTROY 55 MONKS BECAUSE THERE ARE TOO MANY BOTS LOL.

All that means is you'll see warrior bots not to long after they're destroyed. And if you keep destroying things, the game will be gone.

ShadowsRequiem · May 23, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

there will always be bots in a game when people buy gold.

IF no one buys any gw gold there will be no bots.

problem solved.

oh wait... first you guys have to stop buying the gold!

manitoba1073 · May 23, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Who said anything about [wiki]distortion[/wiki]?

Core skills: [wiki]Diversion[/wiki] , [wiki]Shatter Enchantment[/wiki]. Go 55 with that in the mob.

[wiki]Spell Breaker[/wiki] you say?

Try: two bad guys in a mob with [wiki]Lightning Touch[/wiki] and [wiki]Aftershock[/wiki] or [wiki]Signet of Agony[/wiki] and [wiki]Barbed Signet[/wiki]

The point is not to make farming impossible, just difficult, so it requires some talent. Anet could easily render the 55 near useless just by making mobs more diverse with proper shutdown and enchantment hate.

lol sorry i meant diversion as was how you said on its own is not 55 killer.

oh and btw why isnt this thread closed yet since its nothing more than a 55 hate thread.

wetsparks · May 23, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

The thing that makes GW fun is the thing that botters are so easily able to exploit. It is INSANELY easy to max out your character, and there are plenty of mobs in the wold.

Think about it, in Prophecies you can get through the pre-searing in tops 30 minutes, get run by a buddy through Ascalon to Yaks, from Yaks to Beacons, and from Beacons to Droks in less than 2 hours. If your buddy is a gold farmer you can get the gold to get the runs, get gold to get max armor and get run to wherever to leach off your gold farmer buddy to get to lvl 20 and be farming yourself before lunchtime. It wouldn't be efficient because you are 30 attribute points short, but you would have max armor and be level 20 in a couple hours.

Get some more money from your buddy and get run to Sanctum Cay, do that mission, get run through the desert, get run through desert missions, and the doppleganger is easy and you are able to get the extra 30 attribute points. 15 of which you just have to zone to some towns, the other get the southern shiverpeaks run, and you have the last 15 atrribute points after simple quest.

Your character is now level 20, has all 200 attribute points and with the elite tomes you dont even have to hunt through the wilderness to capture SoJ or SS. Just get the PVP unlocks and 2 elite tomes. All of which is paid for by the first gold farmer because it is a good investment to get the second one up and running to be able to keep selling gold to lazy ass noobs.

The only way to fix this is to decrease the number of mobs in an area and make it take longer to max out your character. If you wander into a zone and there is rarely a group of enemies like in a traditional MMO then it takes longer to farm all that gold. If it takes longer to level up and get to places to farm stronger enemies that drop better loot, it wont be worth it to all the gold farmers because the initial time investment is so high, unlike Guild Wars where you can have a maxed out characters in one work day.

Roshi_ikkyu · May 23, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

OK Roshi, what would you suggest?

Well for starters I know almost nothing about game design or the billions of functions involved.

I do know that nerfing a skill or a class isn't going to stop the problem.

Monks were one of the first classes to be hit with the nerf bat, and they have been regularly hit every skill update. They nerfed there smite prayers, Then they nerfed AOE. Not to mention the other various skill nerfs for the other classes.

Still the bots are there, how about coming up with a way of nerfing/banning the bots! I don't know the technical aspects but surely they would have to know IPs and who is connecting from where. The troublesome bots are never individuals with a 3rd party program, there organised companies out to make money.[b] Work on banning the Bots from accessing the game, not nerfing the game to prevent it being desirable for bots and gold farmers[/]b.

Changing the game to nerf a skill or a class will just force the bots to change their class, alter their skills or even adopt new farming method.

My answer find a way of blocking/banning the bots; Before you look at ways of nerfing/banning skill setups and classes.

Hippie Bane · May 23, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

So, what you are saying is to stop bots, an entire class should be nerfed and an entire style of play needs to be cast aside? If prot spells don't work on the caster, then to prot the prot monk in groups both PVE and PVP, groups are either going to have to bring tandem prot monks or do without. Do you even play the game? In PVE enemies run directly for the character with the lowest AL and lowest HP(hint, usually monks and ele folks), and killing monks is always a good thing in PVP. Holy law of Unintended Consequences Batman, and all because some people don't play the game the way that you like.

Personally, I think ANet has found a great balance in targeting bots. They have to go slow, or else a bunch of people get banned by mistake and then come here to complain. Remember that saying, "Better to let a thousand guilty men go free than to punish one innocent man"? ANet is following that principle and I couldn't be happier. They should have a couple people pop from town to town and pursue the people that are clearly farming with bots, and leave the rest of us alone. This is exactly what they are doing.

I think since ecto prices dropped in the past couple weeks some folks that were sitting on stacks of them saw their net worth drop by half or more and are really mad about it. When ectos were at 12-14k, we saw far less of these "ZOMG for the good of the game, nerf solo farming!!1!111" proposals.

edit: typos

MetalMan · May 23, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

In my opinion, you can't nerf any single solo farming build without nerfing about 1,000 other builds that aren't meant for solo farming. And the 55 has only been singled out because its the most common and most legendary, i'm sure if an ele build was even more legendary that'd be singled out instead.

And the farmers that do want to make the money, if prices for items goes down it only means a little more hard work to get the wanted amount of cash.

Pandora's box · May 23, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

.............................
oh and btw why isnt this thread closed yet since its nothing more than a 55 hate thread.

/signed.
We have had these discussions for 2 years. We get a completely new game in another 2 years. Let it be. Give more room to more original topics like how to build a bridge from GW1 to GW2, and stop posting about more nerfs, economy and titles.

Age · May 23, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No it was the abuse in PvP's GvG that prot bond was nerfed. Sorry to break that little bit of news to you.

now back on topic. WTF is wrong with some of you, man the botpobhia is spreading maybe we need to send in the doctors to clear this up. i hear its only a few hundred shots to the rear posteria area. get over it will some of you.

Oh and Lyra sorry but distortion is only a minor neusiance to those of us that actually know how to use our 55's.

I hate to tell you this mani. but Mister B is right protective bond was nerfed because of solo farming.It was hardly ever used in pvp play as maintained enchantments were.This was all discussed in a thread here on the Guru by one of the founders of the 55.They nerfed PB because of the 55 as the switch to protective spirit.

The whole issue of gold farmers and sellers so what if you can afford than buy it.You might want to tell all those who shop at The Gap the same thing after all it is the American Way of freedom to do what we want although me being Canadian we are so much like in a way.If you can afford to buy gold then buy it it is not against any Laws that I know of and not punishable by a criminal offense.There are lots of ppl who have bought gold and used it to buy more than one set of 15K armour that being FoW.I see lots of this in game all the time and they are quite new to the game or char as well their Guild Leader bought with his bought gold.

It is so easy to day to start a guild and buy a guild hall and guild services why because of online gold purchases.I see new guilds poping up all the time and saying new guild with guild hall with all services.

The only reason Anet may not want you to buy it is because of 14 year olds who might get ripped off when no services are delivered so who would they complain to Anet.Anet would prefer not to be held responsible or liable for your purchase that is why there is that clause in the Eula it is no different than someone giving you 100k of gold who knows where that came from.

Sir Kilgore · May 23, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

There is a way to stop the botting, just as there is a way to stop shoplifting.

Close the doors and shut down the shop. Barring that you will not ever completely stop either activity.

You can make things more difficult for botters, but it's a bit like chemotherapy. Sure you might kill the "really bad" stuff faster, but you are killing the whole thing at the same time - and too high of a dose at one time means rapid death.

Seriously, it's just a freaking game. I think the loot scaling was stupid as were some of the other changes like Soul Reaping, and I'm a little bummed because I loved the way it used to be. It's different now - and not in a good way imho, so I find myself spending less and less time on the game. Others may like the changes and spend more and more time on the game. But at the end of it all it's still just a game. It's not likely that your life will be greatly enhanced or diminished if you play more or not at all.

I never have understood and still don't understand why some people get so worried about how someone else decides to play the game. No one has EVER shown clearly a truly negative effect that solo farming has on the game. Even botting probably doesn't have nearly the negative impact as many assume it does. And, as many on here have pointed out, botters only make RL money if players buy the GW gold from them.

How about we all just play the game the way we like to do it and not worry about what everyone else is doing? *sigh* I know it's a lot to ask..........

P.S To the OP - 55's are not permanently nerfed anyway, so the whole premise of your argument is invalid. The drops have been nerfed, but the 55 builds still work flawlessly.